So if you haven't heard, the weather is really gloomy and rainy here in the Philly area today. This is one of those days in which you just want to stay in bed and sleep the day away. But instead I have to come into the office and am attempting to get some work done. Anyways, I am looking for a bit more sermon help if you are willing to think along with me. This week we are continuing with our look at the Exodus, which I started last week, and focusing on the wandering in the desert part. My original intention was to talk about living faithfully on the journey with God and how the desert is a place where our relationship with God is tested.
So here's my questions for this week: What is your view of the desert metaphor in Scripture?
Is it punishment? It is a place of testing? Of preparation?
Is it necessary? Did God have to lead the people through the desert?
What does the desert look like in our spiritual life? Is the desert only times in our life when things seem like they're going down the crapper?
Thanks in advance for the conversation. I'll try to do the Tim Keel post sometime this afternoon.
Without trying to get too deep, what if the desert just is? Not punishment, not testing, not preparation, but it is life. I say this because the idea of punishment, testing, and preparation continue even into the Promised Land. Could it be that we make the desert a bad place? We focus on the bad that happens, but the desert was also the place used to escape slavery. The desert was the place where God reveals God's self to the community. The desert was the place where the Hebrew community was established...so on and so forth.
ReplyDeleteThe point being in life we have trials and we have celebrations - whether it is in the desert or in the Promised Land. The exciting news is that God is with us through all times and all things. So to me, the question would be what is the difference between the desert and the Promised Land and that would be wandering vs. settling in. Looking back at it, were the Hebrews closer to God in the desert or in the Promised Land? In the desert they had to rely on God, but once they settled in they felt they were self sufficient.
Don't know if any of this helps or even makes sense, but thanks for letting me ramble.
I think that it is more about trust God than God testing us. The 12 spies went and saw the good land. They also saw giants. 2 people said God would help them and 10 were afraid. The people sided with the 10 and did not trust the God who had parted an entire body of water in front of them and had just freed them from slavery. They failed to trust a God who had just shown up in a big way on a mountain.
ReplyDeleteSo, we have the desert. The only way the people survive in the desert is by God's provisions. They wake up, get enough food for the day without doing anything. it is there. They get birds that fly in for them to eat as well. They also have water to drink each and every day. So, I think it has more to do with God showing them that they could trust him in all circumstances. Sure, they didn't get to go into the land but why? They didn't trust that God would go before them and fight there battles. So, the entire time in the desert was God showing the next generation that they could trust them. God would provide for them and fight their battles for them.
Do we really believe that God will provide for us or do we have to work as hard as possible to get everything that we think we need? I am not saying that working for a living is bad, but sometimes I think we miss out of truly trusting God for things that we need. If the Israelites gathered more than they needed for a day then the extra food would be infested with maggots and smell. It is hard to trust God for what I need for today. You could throw in the Lord's Prayer at this point and how Jesus teaches us to pray "Give us this day, our daily bread." That is a hard prayer to pray and an even harder one to live out.
Do we trust God to take care of our battles or do we need to fight them on our own? Do I need to take care of things or let God? What does it mean, one more time in the Lord's Prayer, to "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us." Once again, hard to pray but most of the time even harder to live out.
I think that trust is a big subject of the desert. There are many more, but trust really sticks out to me.
Tim,
ReplyDeleteI hear what you are saying and agree but I have a follow up question. If the desert just is, are there times when you can say that you are in the desert? If so, what differentiates those times from others?
Jeremy,
ReplyDeleteI like using the Lord's Prayer in here as well. So what does the promised land look like for you then? It seems that you are saying that the desert is this place where we are learning to trust in God so at what point do we cross into the promised land? Is it when we learn how to trust in God, or are we continually in the desert?
Jared,
ReplyDeleteI see what you are saying, but what if the metaphorical desert just stands for transition. I wonder if it can just be a new place - not good, not bad, but within this new place there are times of trials, testing, preparations, and celebrations. And as Jeremy has pointed out, times of trust and times of mistrust. So I guess one could answer your question concerning being in the desert by saying being in the desert is being in a time of transition.
And to follow up with your question to Jeremy, if we look at the desert as being a time of transition, then I think we are continually in the desert.
ReplyDeleteSo then is the promised land only going to be realized in the eschaton?
ReplyDeleteOr is the desert "crisis" points in our life, to use our holiness language?
How does all of this affect middle schoolers and their place in life right now as well?
I remember once Holly and I analyzed a song by Sara Groves on the way to District Assembly. The song is called "Painting pictures of Egypt." The chorus says:
ReplyDeleteI've been painting pictures of Egypt
leaving out what it lacks
the future feels so hard
but I want to go back.
But the places that used to fit me
cannot hold the things I've learned
those roads are closed off to me
while my back was turned.
I think it's those times in the desert where we do learn through the struggle, most of the time not even realizing it, because we are so focused on the doom and gloom of the here and now. But it's in those times that we learn to trust and look ahead to what God has promised.
I would say that even when Israel gets to the "promise land", they still struggle with trust. They get comfortable, start looking around and say things like, "We want an earthly king like the other nations." I am not sure what you might say about the promise land other than God gave houses they didn't have to build and vineyards already planted. Once again, God provides and once again Israel fails to trust. I am not sure if we have a clear picture of what it would have been like if Israel would have trusted.
ReplyDeleteI don't think their promise land was in relation to heaven, but once agian it was a place where God provided and God fought battles. We think of promise land and our mind automatically goes to the end when things are restored. I am not sure that was the image that God had in mind for the literal promise land for the Israelites. We never hear of that mentioned in the Torah, so why do we jump there automatically? What if promise land is a continual place where God provides and God fights for us? Why does promise land have to be where everything is restored?
Jeremy,
ReplyDeleteI think you ask a great question at the end. Why does the promised land have to be where everything is restored? I have a few thoughts on that.
First, the name in and of itself invokes that kind of thinking. Shouldn't the promised land be where everything is restored?
Two, our culture in the church has been solely focused on the afterlife that even if we don't want to go there in our thinking, it's too ingrained to stop sometimes. I believe this is why we always think of the desert in negative terms, because its not what we are looking to. So we fail to see what God is doing in the here and now.
Three, would you guys equate the promised land to anywhere the Kingdom of God is present? I would think that the definitions that we are using for the promised land sound an awful lot like the Kingdom of God.
P.S. I love and crave this kind of conversation, please keep it coming. You can also let me know if you want to put a post up as well sometime. That would be fun!
ReplyDeleteP.P.S. Jenna, the chorus to that song is very fitting. Thanks for sharing. I may use that!
I see the desert as God's leading and preparing His people for true relationship. The whole journey was filled with God's provision for His people. However, we must take note of the people's grumblings, and see that humility, thankfulness, patience, and many other attributes were being taught through the telling of this story of the Exodus. Another very interesting thread for this conversation is in relationship to Paul's view of the Fruit of the Spirit. The evidence or emanation of these attributes flow out of a follower of Christ because they are in relationship with their Creator, the ups and downs of any relationship will given time, meaning, and love, grow stronger and more healthy.
ReplyDeleteTherefore, to answer your question; "Was the desert necessary?" Yes and no. No becuase if the Israelites would have been patient, humble, etc. the desert would not have been so bad. Yes because of their grumblings we all have learned a valuable lesson. That is the beauty of a God who cares enough to teach, prune, shape, and mold us into the people He desires us to be. The question is, "Do you really believe God is real and important enough to go through the desert?"
Don't you think that if the Israelites would have sided with the two or if all 12 had come back and said we can go in and take it, if they would have trusted Yahweh, they wouldn't have had to go to the wilderness? I am not sure they "had" to go through the wilderness, but because of their un-trust they did. Now, I think you can always talk about what the wildernesses of life look like and what our response should or should not be, but I am not sure it was a must for them to go through the wilderness. I am not sure it was God's plan at least...
ReplyDeleteJeremy once again I like where your head is at. I must admit that I had to go back and reread the passage that you were referring to but I would agree that the wilderness wasn't something that they had to go through. You could almost point to blessing in this case. Were the people able to fully live into blessing others by not possessing the land that God was wanting to give to them? Was their wandering in the wilderness a curse for the world just as it was for them as well?
ReplyDeleteThis then leads to us understanding that God wants to bless us in order to bless others and that we can only do that to the fullest extent when we are following faithfully after God. Yet when we are not being blessed by God fully, because of our disobedience, then we are in some ways doing a disservice to those around us. Interesting thinking.
Are we talking about the desert or the wandering around in the wilderness for 40 years?
ReplyDeleteI think it started out as desert and now is encompassing both. Is there a difference? I would say that the desert and wilderness are pretty much the same thing.
ReplyDeleteI want to seperate the two in the notion of the desert serving as God's leading His people to the promised land and a time learning, growing, and blessing, and then the grumbling and sin enter into the picture and that's when the "wandering the wilderness" comes onto the scene and God uses it as a reprimand and a time disciplining for thier sin.
ReplyDeleteInterestingly, both scenes (desert and wilderness) were beneficial to the chosen people of God. The desert is a place of God's leading and provision and that is when we follow Him. The wilderness wanderings is a time where we must recognize our wrong doings, repent, and refocus our hearts back to God's will and leading. If we do not recognize or if we refuse His leading and discipline then we have been blinded by ourselves.
If we are the people of God, then we must become more and more like what He desires us to be. If we don't, then we invite a brokeness into our lives that seperates us from God and others.
Having spent many days camping in the desert, I feel a unique connection to this misunderstood place and its potential for life lessons. Most see the desert as hot, desolate, a metaphor for loneliness. But with a new set of eyes, desert life offers some of our best lessons. Take the lone desert flower. In a sea of apparent lifelessness it bursts forth, even thrives. This flower makes a bold declaration of life lessons to fellow desert bloomers: Life can blossom even when all conditions are contrary to existence. Dry times force your roots deep into the source. Morning dew can always find the flower. Peace will come as the heat of the sun surrenders to the horizon. The crystalline night skies lay out the carpet of heavenly stars as never before seen. Only visible to the desert flower.
ReplyDeleteSome of God’s most magnificent handiwork is only made evident in this lonely place. In the desert we can truly engage with the power of life. There are few distractions. All we have clung to other than God is stripped aside. He becomes our soul reason for survival. God must plant us all in the desert for a season. In the desert we find all the elements adverse to our life and happiness now acting as a frame to help us celebrate it. In the sharp contrast of the desert sun we can see with new clarity the Light. God can show us life as we have never seen it before. The desert, where simple survival becomes the fullness of life. Take a lesson from a flower.
Dave, I really love this quote by you. "In the desert we can truly engage with the power of life. There are few distractions. All we have clung to other than God is stripped aside." That's good stuff.
ReplyDeleteOn Sunday I talked about how this people group had been given a promise generations before that they probably had forgotten about because they were enslaved and their existence had been whittled down to making bricks. But one thing that we tend to overlook in the story is that God is reforming a people whose existence is dependent upon God and not what they do.
Thank you all for your comments and help. Please feel free to keep the discussion going.